GM REP/ UNION DUES -- SeT.u.FrEE

[GM Bennett]

I think both sides offered up some good arguments. I agree with Cory that both options of either $250K or $500K should both be payable options. I voted $250K personally cause I'm okay with giving up that small piece of money to help the fund if it means it'll help towards exterior threats to us and the league.

This PFL poaching BS effected all of us I think it's a bit naive and a bit shortsighted to not consider having this sort of thing in place just in case. Yes we have an agreement now but we never know if some individual is gonna do something else that threatens all of us again because of a dice roll that results in us getting fucked...again.

I agree that it shouldn't be mandatory + I do agree with Eli when saying I'd be damned if I got fined by this union and sitting GM Rep for not participating. I'm with Wayne's line of  thinking, if I didn't contribute now or wanted to pay up that $250K or $500K now but definitely would if there was a league wide issue. If someone wants to go that route they shouldn't be punished or shit on by others for it. If they don't do a damn thing to help us all get out of a jam when that jam comes though I'd say that's another story. I know I voiced I wanted that person that f'd up to be the main one that's punished but if there's an option that helps us avoid any of what has happened I'm good with that.

Since you made the mistake of posting this in an OOC section, I think Kirk can 100% participate in this discussion. Don't let disagreement taint good actual discussion with points worth addressing.

I agree with this as well. Since this is OOC, Kirk should be allowed to speak up on this matter. If it was IC, then sure whatever he'd say probably would be null and void. If this was IC I probably wouldn't even had Bennett say anything and just vote.

All that said, as long as Pancho or whoever is GM Rep communicates to every GM about what they plan on doing with the fund and every GM agrees to that use, then I simply do not have an issue with us doing this.

[GM Yount]

SORRY FOR THE INCOMING TERM PAPER BUT I WAS AT WORK FOR MOST OF THIS DISCUSSION I DONT MEAN TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE

I am a flip flopper.

I originally voted yes, bc I was planning on chipping in regardless & thought the idea of building up a nest egg before a crisis happens was a good one-- I've always been pro-donating w/e I have to the GM fund in case of emergencies and am totally cool doing it in the offseason before I've blown through all my money.

Reasons I changed my mind:

- Seeing the amount of people strongly opposed to it made me feel like as frustrating as it is when people don't get on board with me, having these things where GMs take sides and stuff can create more of the conflict that keeps things fun.

- Sorry if this has been touched upon more in the thread, was at work on a hot day & my brain is fried. But given T saying this is our thing, and he's hands off it, that ... while it's not my main reason does make me question how the mandatory would be enforced. I don't see how the gm union would be able to level a fine before the game progresses ... would everyone that pays just not lock in or post until the fine's paid out of protest if the idea's for the mod to keep his hands clean? Like, I'm not trying to be snarky but I don't see how we have any power to stop the game from advancing if a fine isn't paid.

- Along those lines, the idea of perks pitched by some in here for those who do pay if opt-outs happened had me wondering how these would be handed out without mod power. I think Cory mentioned combines & training, which idk how tf the gm union would provide that since it's the handlers. Either way, that wouldn't be why I was paying in anyways in an ideal world. I'd just like to give my money in case there's an emergency & if it doesn't end up being needed, it'd be cool to get it back in the offseason but if not oh well.

- It wasn't about trusting how my money would be spent. At least until this afternoon, when it was suggested that the GM fund give out bonus money to people for updating the spreadsheets and stuff. Like I said, I feel like that's a really weird crossing of lines for in character resources being given out to people for out of character work they do presumably because they loves this game & enjoy it. I'm grateful for it, but I feel like these are two separate things that should be kept separate.

- I know the GMs who do it already said they don't want it, but the fact it got pitched was the first time I got a little concerned about how my funds would be used. I appreciate that everyone got tagged asking if we had any objections, but it even getting pitched was wild to me & felt kind of seat of the pants and does have me more concerned than I was about creative ideas being come up with that seem at least to me beyond the scope of stuff & if we're gonna keep pushing for new ways for it to be used. 

I'll roll with whatever's decided, and despite my reservations do plan on contributing to the GM fund regardless. So you've got my imaginary money. My vote switch was more off me feeling this thing has just turned into kind of a shitshow & I don't want to take away GMs chance to make what I feel are bad decisions and then for me to be annoyed about it after. I'm generally a pretty pro-union, pro-gm rep kind of guy and think Pancho's overall done a very good job so far & don't think any suggestions were made with ill-intent, but it's just one of those things where initially I was pretty sold but the more it gets talked about the more I just want to burn this all with fire & that's what my vote reflects.

[Talon]

and idea so unpopular Jon and Kirk have become allies.

HOLY. SHIT.

[Talon]

Polarizing, not unpopular I guess.

[GM Pancho]

- Sorry if this has been touched upon more in the thread, was at work on a hot day & my brain is fried. But given T saying this is our thing, and he's hands off it, that ... while it's not my main reason does make me question how the mandatory would be enforced. I don't see how the gm union would be able to level a fine before the game progresses ... would everyone that pays just not lock in or post until the fine's paid out of protest if the idea's for the mod to keep his hands clean? Like, I'm not trying to be snarky but I don't see how we have any power to stop the game from advancing if a fine isn't paid.

- Along those lines, the idea of perks pitched by some in here for those who do pay if opt-outs happened had me wondering how these would be handed out without mod power. I think Cory mentioned combines & training, which idk how tf the gm union would provide that since it's the handlers. Either way, that wouldn't be why I was paying in anyways in an ideal world. I'd just like to give my money in case there's an emergency & if it doesn't end up being needed, it'd be cool to get it back in the offseason but if not oh well.

- It wasn't about trusting how my money would be spent. At least until this afternoon, when it was suggested that the GM fund give out bonus money to people for updating the spreadsheets and stuff. Like I said, I feel like that's a really weird crossing of lines for in character resources being given out to people for out of character work they do presumably because they loves this game & enjoy it. I'm grateful for it, but I feel like these are two separate things that should be kept separate.

I'm not sure you meant it to be phrased this way but part of the reason you're now against Dues - are OOC reasons ... which is the same issue you had with me proposing to help GM's who have helped all of us? Just trying to parse this out.

[GM Storm]

There are a lot of people who get a lot of money out of their GM contract. I'm not one of them so 500K basically takes 25% of my contracted money. Still, I voted yes because I think it is better for us to be prepared for something like a poaching storyline rather than to be scrambling to collect money at the last minute. I don't like that some GMs will refuse to pay but will reap the benefits of others doing so when those things come up.

While I understand not wanting to be forced to pay anything, this is just part of being a union and having representation. You have to finance them in order for them to be effective in their work.

[GM Kirk]

Someone made a good point earlier about the GM fund bailing out players who otherwise wouldn't get a good outcome by themselves in situations. It lets people avoid confronting these storylines head on and abdicate responsibility. HIFL (OOC) is not a team game.

[GM Yount]

- Sorry if this has been touched upon more in the thread, was at work on a hot day & my brain is fried. But given T saying this is our thing, and he's hands off it, that ... while it's not my main reason does make me question how the mandatory would be enforced. I don't see how the gm union would be able to level a fine before the game progresses ... would everyone that pays just not lock in or post until the fine's paid out of protest if the idea's for the mod to keep his hands clean? Like, I'm not trying to be snarky but I don't see how we have any power to stop the game from advancing if a fine isn't paid.

- Along those lines, the idea of perks pitched by some in here for those who do pay if opt-outs happened had me wondering how these would be handed out without mod power. I think Cory mentioned combines & training, which idk how tf the gm union would provide that since it's the handlers. Either way, that wouldn't be why I was paying in anyways in an ideal world. I'd just like to give my money in case there's an emergency & if it doesn't end up being needed, it'd be cool to get it back in the offseason but if not oh well.

- It wasn't about trusting how my money would be spent. At least until this afternoon, when it was suggested that the GM fund give out bonus money to people for updating the spreadsheets and stuff. Like I said, I feel like that's a really weird crossing of lines for in character resources being given out to people for out of character work they do presumably because they loves this game & enjoy it. I'm grateful for it, but I feel like these are two separate things that should be kept separate.

I'm not sure you meant it to be phrased this way but part of the reason you're now against Dues - are OOC reasons ... which is the same issue you had with me proposing to help GM's who have helped all of us? Just trying to parse this out.

I'm saying the ooc clarification of who is running what is making me question how we'd manage to in the game accomplish a lot of the stuff being talked about, and again was low down my list.

I don't see any connection between as a handler wondering how a mechanic would work & using GMs funds to reward people for voluntary ooc behavior is remotely the same. In character the GM rep/union is quite limited in what it can do, far as what I see. In character gm Eli as far as I know isn't keeping track of every gm in the leagues record & sharing it in a spreadsheet to everyone.

Anyways I've probably talked this subject to death at this point, wanted to clear that up.

[Talon]

DISCUSSION COMPLETE.

thank you for your participation

[Talon]

New guys may vote still.