GM REP/ UNION DUES -- SeT.u.FrEE

[GM Pancho]

I put the motion forward to popular vote.  Should GM's be required to pay into the GM Fund. There are 32 GM's - 17 votes for any Yes makes it happen and I create a separate poll to choose between 500 or 250. 15 No votes kills any dues. Discuss.

Note: I as the Rep can only spend the money. I vow not to use it for personal use/only league business - if the fund is not spent - I vow to use it in the off season as a way to help train select player from your team or other ways to benefit us AS a group.

[Talon]

sounds like a bonus payment to the Executive of the year!

[GM Franchise]

Hell fucking no to this.

[GM Gooch]

I think this is well thought out. I'm in at $500k.

[GM Dazz]

Where's that Hell Naw clip. I 100% agree with Franchise and will resign from the GM Union (not the league or my team) if it happens.

[Talon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB4Nby2Ai-g

I got you fam.

[GM Oldfield]

I'm happy to put less than 1% of my bonus budget into a fund to prevent what happened last year. But remember it's a fund to protect GM's

[GM Mike Powers]

I am 100% for a GM fund and will contribute to it as I always have. I am also 100% against making participation mandatory.

[GM Eli]

Yeah it's a no from me on anything that's mandatory as well, unless you can provide a specific breakdown of how the dues will be used and unless there are limits put in place to keep the GM Rep (Pancho, or anyone that might come after him tbh) from improper use of the funds. A vow doesn't hold much weight for me.

[GM Rebel]

Yeah, I'm in.

[GM Adam Wrong]

If there is a bonus or a boon for those of us who don't fuck up to the point they need bailing out then I'm in.

If its mandatory, I am out though...

[GM Thad]

"I'm in unless you make me then I'm out"

[GM Pancho]

Yeah it's a no from me on anything that's mandatory as well, unless you can provide a specific breakdown of how the dues will be used and unless there are limits put in place to keep the GM Rep (Pancho, or anyone that might come after him tbh) from improper use of the funds. A vow doesn't hold much weight for me.

Sure I'm down for limits and specificity. Put it all in writing if need be.

[GM Gravedigger]

I'm fine with people opting out. But if you get into trouble, you're on your own.

[GM Gooch]

I'm fine with people opting out. But if you get into trouble, you're on your own.

This right here

[GM Jon]

I don't think I need to see so much how you'll use the money, I trust you. It's why we voted you in as our GM Rep.

But I do like the idea of having a hard cap set for money in the pot. Like at what point is too much?

I also believe mandatory participation is a must. I don't see how it benefits either side for having a select few opt out. And if that does become what we allow, then we need to have some way that it benefits those that opt in to the union in more ways than it helping the league as a whole. What that is, I'm not sure.

[Talon]

As this is in the OOC, Im happy to also add: 

With this being a GM created mechanic, I will not be enforcing anything.  It will be on you guys to police this entire mechanic.

[GM C4]

I'm down to support the fund but I have two suggestions:

1) I think 250k and 500k should both be payable options, not one or another. I think there shouldn't be a cap as some seasons I maybe have extra 750k for example that would be most beneficial going to the fund. Wasn't sure on the wording if there was a cap.

2) I agree with Digger that it shouldn't be mandatory, but I'd like to see a ledger of what GM has donated to the fund so that in times of crisis a GM who hasn't paid his dues could be ostracized by the league to the fullest degree. Also if a GM who has donated a substantial amount would get less shit if they have to use the fund because they've paid their due.

[GM Pancho]

Where's that Hell Naw clip. I 100% agree with Franchise and will resign from the GM Union (not the league or my team) if it happens.

The hair splitting in this post is fantastic.  If you are hired as a GM ... you are part of the GM Union.  If resigning was an option Metro would have done it since it's inception. 

The reason I want to set it up is there were plenty of GM's that complained about poaching ... and then didn't want to do anything about it.  When it was time to pony up - they let me know they had funds - and they wouldn't be participating - even knowing the situation would get worse if we didn't.

BD was ready to pay 9 out of his 10 Million of bonus to end the PFL war, or Strike ponied up 5 million to save EVERYONE's coaches from Vacation Island [and full disclosure - I was one of those idiots who didn't want to pony up at that time - I WAS WRONG] ... some of y'all won't even pony up 250k for a guaranteed future problem.  Not Fine.

You want a hard cap so it doesn't continue to grow. Fine.

You want to limit on the things the Fund can be spent on. Fine.

You want it all in writing for my and future GM Rep's to avoid abuse. More than Fine.

How about some of y'all write up those rules you'd like to see and participate?

I'm down to support the fund but I have two suggestions:

1) I think 250k and 500k should both be payable options, not one or another. I think there shouldn't be a cap as some seasons I maybe have extra 750k for example that would be most beneficial going to the fund. Wasn't sure on the wording if there was a cap.

2) I agree with Digger that it shouldn't be mandatory, but I'd like to see a ledger of what GM has donated to the fund so that in times of crisis a GM who hasn't paid his dues could be ostracized by the league to the fullest degree. Also if a GM who has donated a substantial amount would get less shit if they have to use the fund because they've paid their due.

1] These are only the minimum mandatory amounts - it does not prevent those that wish to kick into the kitty more.  Seeing as how previous issues have gone if there was going to be a cap it should be set at 32 Million considering thats the highest payment weve had to make.

2] To me Mandatory is a must - everyone benefits from the CBA we negotiate - therefor everyone must contribute - if you want to have running ledgers from each GM [not team as GM's swap around] I am willing to commit to keeping those books in order.

[Talon]

A question I'd like to have answered:

Is this coming from your off-season bonus each year (so its coming from your contract) or are you paying these dues from your in-season bonus which would really be the TEAM paying for your union?   

It should be an off-season payment as the "dues"   it shouldn't ever be coming from your in-season bonus fund unless its an emergency payment like we've had when a wild storyline comes into play.

[GM Pancho]

A question I'd like to have answered:

Is this coming from your off-season bonus each year (so its coming from your contract) or are you paying these dues from your in-season bonus which would really be the TEAM paying for your union?   

It should be an off-season payment as the "dues"   it shouldn't ever be coming from your in-season bonus fund unless its an emergency payment like we've had when a wild storyline comes into play.

My opinion - it should be coming from our off season bonus [aka our contracts] - why I priced it so low at 250-500k

[GM C4]

I'm down to support the fund but I have two suggestions:

1) I think 250k and 500k should both be payable options, not one or another. I think there shouldn't be a cap as some seasons I maybe have extra 750k for example that would be most beneficial going to the fund. Wasn't sure on the wording if there was a cap.

2) I agree with Digger that it shouldn't be mandatory, but I'd like to see a ledger of what GM has donated to the fund so that in times of crisis a GM who hasn't paid his dues could be ostracized by the league to the fullest degree. Also if a GM who has donated a substantial amount would get less shit if they have to use the fund because they've paid their due.

1] These are only the minimum mandatory amounts - it does not prevent those that wish to kick into the kitty more.  Seeing as how previous issues have gone if there was going to be a cap it should be set at 32 Million considering thats the highest payment weve had to make.

2] To me Mandatory is a must - everyone benefits from the CBA we negotiate - therefor everyone must contribute - if you want to have running ledgers from each GM [not team as GM's swap around] I am willing to commit to keeping those books in order.

Sounds good, I'm in!

[GM Eli]

Question as you said mandatory is a must, how do you plan on enforcing a MUST if the mod is not getting involved in this?

[GM Franchise]

Question as you said mandatory is a must, how do you plan on enforcing a MUST if the mod is not getting involved in this?

I was wondering this myself.

[GM C4]

Could work similarly to the NFL. I know Bill Belichick isn't a part of some union which is why his likeness isn't in the Madden games. You could have teams not buy in not get the insurance of the Union and/or the rewards of end of season perk for being in the union being it combines/training or whatever.

Some people drive without insurance, I suppose GMs could run their teams that way too.

[GM Pancho]

Question as you said mandatory is a must, how do you plan on enforcing a MUST if the mod is not getting involved in this?

The whole Point of this vote - much like I got elected. Majority rules. The poll does say automatically in the title.

[GM Gates]

Question as you said mandatory is a must, how do you plan on enforcing a MUST if the mod is not getting involved in this?

The whole Point of this vote - much like I got elected. Majority rules.

Majority votes in favor, but teams don't pay. Do you force them to pay? And if so how?

Or is it going to go like Cory mentioned, they just don't get the same benefits of the union? And if so, say it's a league wide event such as the PFL, do you state that the funds being presented only protect certain teams and the rest are still game for whatever is happening?

[GM Eli]

Question as you said mandatory is a must, how do you plan on enforcing a MUST if the mod is not getting involved in this?

The whole Point of this vote - much like I got elected. Majority rules. The poll does say automatically in the title.

Gates pretty much summed it up. How are you going to force any team to pay when you have no control over each GMs finances, and the mod has said he's not doing any of it.

How are you going to make it "automatically" happen? Or how will you enforce it being mandatory

[GM Mike Powers]

"I'm in unless you make me then I'm out"

I've contributed to the GM Fund many times, so I've proven that I am a proponent of its existence. I just think that my finances are my business, yours are yours, Panchos is Panchos...I don't like the idea of being forced to do anything by my peers. The league is one thing, self imposed mandatories are a different story in my opinion.

[GM Franchise]

"I'm in unless you make me then I'm out"

I've contributed to the GM Fund many times, so I've proven that I am a proponent of its existence. I just think that my finances are my business, yours are yours, Panchos is Panchos...I don't like the idea of being forced to do anything by my peers. The league is one thing, self imposed mandatories are a different story in my opinion.

Hell fucking no to this.

^This

[GM Justin]

Flying fuck no

[GM Thad]

You just know that the GMs who want to opt out won't feel obligated to pay into any sort of league wide penalty, whether it be vacation isle, other league penalties, some other scenario. These same GMs are the ones that caused our 15 mil penalty to turn into a 32 mil penalty.

[GM Thad]

Before you go blaming Rebel, that part wasn't Rebel. That was a select few GMs.

[GM Kirk]

There shouldn't be a GM Rep or a GM Union. One GM shouldn't dictate the rules of the game to everyone else and certainly shouldn't be denouncing GMs who don't want to play his way. All the GM Rep has done is create bad blood and a hostile work environment.

[GM Kirk]

I'll state my view a little more clearly. There should be no official union, but that doesn't mean GMs can't act collectively. If you want to send a particular GM some funds to use on your behalf and you want to give him your voice, go for it but do it unofficially. For people who always find themselves in opposition to the "majority" view, it makes no sense to give a GM you disagree with so much power or any money. How would this work with the CBA? Explain what rules or changes your team needs to your owner so Talon sees what direction every GM wants to see the league go in. Then have 2 or 3 options offered for a vote. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense IC but works much better OOC. If a GM is always on the opposite side of every issue and then sees his voice taken from him, eventually the game doesn't seem all that fun anymore.

[Talon]

I'll state my view a little more clearly. There should be no official union, but that doesn't mean GMs can't act collectively. If you want to send a particular GM some funds to use on your behalf and you want to give him your voice, go for it but do it unofficially. For people who always find themselves in opposition to the "majority" view, it makes no sense to give a GM you disagree with so much power or any money. How would this work with the CBA? Explain what rules or changes your team needs to your owner so Talon sees what direction every GM wants to see the league go in. Then have 2 or 3 options offered for a vote. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense IC but works much better OOC. If a GM is always on the opposite side of every issue and then sees his voice taken from him, eventually the game doesn't seem all that fun anymore.

Good points, but just as a little bit of transparency the GM rep role is much more IC than anything else.  Gates and Pancho have given some ideas but if I dont like it, its dead on the floor and there will never be a change made that I dont agree with.   

The GM Rep in an OOC role is much more just to save me from having to ask 30 people to PM me what they want the salary cap to be.

Far less power than it would appear to be, outside of having to be the figure head for whatever large scale story line I cook up every few seasons.

Case and point, the union dues being an unofficial process.  If I wanted you guys to have to pay a due, it would just be added into the game.    just like with the GM fund which I only posted the left-over post season for easy of remembering, that  GM emergency fund was thought up by Gates and run on his end without any rules or anything else.  Anyone could start that type of fund if they wanted to, it wasnt exclusive to the GM Rep.


If you guys want to vote to end the GM rep (IC or OOC) Im fine because the same cap changes will come when I feel like they are needed etc.    The budget is going to be maxed every year because with 30+ players there is going to be someone or multiple people who spend big money to get someone so they dont miss out on some star power or proven production.  Whether that is a cap of $200 or 200,000,000  it plays the same way.    If GMs wanted to REALLY force some change, they would organize and not give GMs who get into cap hell an out, but again with 30+ players someone will take the draft picks or players and bail a guy out of a bad deal because it also benefits his team.   

Just my 75 cents on the matter.

[GM Stark]

I can't sleep. So just listen to me ramble and tell me to shut up if I sound incoherent. Fine? Ok:

Let's not get stuck on "mandatory" for the moment. If you're willing to donate to the pot, then there needs to be some concession to the fact that you're already buying into joining the union; Donating cash means you've got a collective say in the matters of getting what you want. That's bureaucracy and collective bargaining. To enforce that just means that any action that the union takes outside of an independent entity is more paramount than the minority of dissenters. That means if the majority agrees to the terms of bargaining agreements outside voices don't outweigh the collective.

So no matter what you think is a raw deal, no matter what you think we could've squeezed out of negotiations, at the end of the day the union is a chance to sit at the table and actually have an ample voice when it comes to the discourse surrounding how funds are allocated. Me, I wouldn't mandate all GMs to vote. I'm empathetic to wanting to have some individualism and when people start hearing "mandatory" it makes them feel like it's not up for discussion. And it is!

That being said, however, the union is a chance to come to the table and have a democratic process. That way, your voice is heard, and you state your ideas for everyone to hear. Because from a meta standpoint, I'm sick and tired of having players go rogue and there being no substantive action taken when someone decides to sour the pot. People unilaterally flying off the handle during peace times sucks for both parties. Now, the problem is from a real-world standpoint, we can't force nor threaten you to vote, that's against the law. There can't be any coercion or bullying to get what you want.

But you do still get a say, no matter what. Unions work for you, that's the deal. If you don't like the arrangements, you're more than welcome to abstain or vote no from the voting process. We don't know what you want, we assume your votes are in good faith. But to the lot who just wanna shit stir, just realize that you're essentially handing the union something like a blank check. A rule I was thinking out, if you resign from the union under any circumstances you should be eligible to get a refund of the money you paid into it. That shows good faith on the part of the union.

Also, in terms of a cap, we've got over 30 teams, that's like $16MM in terms of an emergency fund. I say that should be the cap for the time being in my opinion.

[GM Wayne]

Anyone that's ever seen Season 2 of The Wire knows that unions don't actually work for you ;)

It's a no for me on anything mandatory. I'm happy to contribute when it's a league wide story that comes about through collective failure. For instance if the PFL poaching story had erupted because multiple GM's ran their league down, then it's a league wide problem and I can see the use of the GM fund being reasonable. But when it's the result of one GM's mistake (as it was) and the rest of us are expected to clean it up while they still have money to contribute but are refusing to? No thanks.

I don't need boons or rewards from the GM Rep. I can handle my own roster and improvements.

[GM Dazz]

I've never agreed with a GM fund use yet so I'm not paying into one. If I get in trouble I'll deal with it myself. If someone else gets in trouble I'll laugh and try to find a way to benefit. When the whole league gets in trouble I'll still try to find a way to benefit. That's the game. I loved the pfl war and didn't want that to end so I was pretty annoyed when a stupid sum was paid and I was being asked to contribute to someone else's bad decision. Make it as mandatory as you like, I still won't pay and I'll deal with the consequences.

[GM Franchise]

I've never agreed with a GM fund use yet so I'm not paying into one. If I get in trouble I'll deal with it myself. If someone else gets in trouble I'll laugh and try to find a way to benefit. When the whole league gets in trouble I'll still try to find a way to benefit. That's the game. I loved the pfl war and didn't want that to end so I was pretty annoyed when a stupid sum was paid and I was being asked to contribute to someone else's bad decision. Make it as mandatory as you like, I still won't pay and I'll deal with the consequences.

^This, all excellent points and sums this entire debate up nicely other than the sum being paid part since the PFL kept coming for my receivers but the rest, two thumbs way up

[GM Pancho]

I'll state my view a little more clearly. There should be no official union, but that doesn't mean GMs can't act collectively. If you want to send a particular GM some funds to use on your behalf and you want to give him your voice, go for it but do it unofficially. For people who always find themselves in opposition to the "majority" view, it makes no sense to give a GM you disagree with so much power or any money. How would this work with the CBA? Explain what rules or changes your team needs to your owner so Talon sees what direction every GM wants to see the league go in. Then have 2 or 3 options offered for a vote. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense IC but works much better OOC. If a GM is always on the opposite side of every issue and then sees his voice taken from him, eventually the game doesn't seem all that fun anymore.

Sorry but this discussion is for GM's only.  Considering you resigned - AGAIN - buh bye.

Question as you said mandatory is a must, how do you plan on enforcing a MUST if the mod is not getting involved in this?

I always assumed that this money would be coming from the GM Contracts - after all dues usually come straight from pay - so much like a paycheck it would already be deducted 250k/500k when you received your amount. If that isn't satisfactory - or if the mod wishes to remain unharmed - then it would be leveled as a fine similar to the tax that must be paid before the game progresses.

"I'm in unless you make me then I'm out"

I've contributed to the GM Fund many times, so I've proven that I am a proponent of its existence. I just think that my finances are my business, yours are yours, Panchos is Panchos...I don't like the idea of being forced to do anything by my peers. The league is one thing, self imposed mandatories are a different story in my opinion.

Except it isn't.  Rebels actions had league ramifications - we all don't work independently - one of us makes waves those riptides effect us.  I wish I could tell players what other GM's offer is their business and mine is mine but we don't exist in a vaccum.  Let's not be obtuse. And I thank every GM who donated to the fund - what about those players that refuse and yet still benefit?

Anyone that's ever seen Season 2 of The Wire knows that unions don't actually work for you ;)

It's a no for me on anything mandatory. I'm happy to contribute when it's a league wide story that comes about through collective failure. For instance if the PFL poaching story had erupted because multiple GM's ran their league down, then it's a league wide problem and I can see the use of the GM fund being reasonable. But when it's the result of one GM's mistake (as it was) and the rest of us are expected to clean it up while they still have money to contribute but are refusing to? No thanks.

I don't need boons or rewards from the GM Rep. I can handle my own roster and improvements.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely I believe was the message of The Wire - down to have that debate ANYTIME - LOVE THE WIRE. If you think PFL story was one GM's actions ... you didn't pay attention and learn from that mistake.

I've never agreed with a GM fund use yet so I'm not paying into one. If I get in trouble I'll deal with it myself. If someone else gets in trouble I'll laugh and try to find a way to benefit. When the whole league gets in trouble I'll still try to find a way to benefit. That's the game. I loved the pfl war and didn't want that to end so I was pretty annoyed when a stupid sum was paid and I was being asked to contribute to someone else's bad decision. Make it as mandatory as you like, I still won't pay and I'll deal with the consequences.

Then  I should allow you to resign from the GM Union - thus you are not protected from the PFL poaching as that was negotiated by the rep for the union ... you also may not participate in the trade window.  Oh wait ... you wish to receive the benefits of said union still ... GASP!  I'm sorry I just don't see the logic in that.

[GM Eli]

You're assuming that it comes from the GMs contracts but you have no authority to draw from the GMs contracts and with the mod already saying he's hands off and this will be self policed by us, you have no means of actually enforcing a mandatory anything.

How are you going to levy a fine against anyone?

[GM Eli]

I'm certainly not going to be in support of anything where an active GM, regardless of position, has any right to fine me or draw money from my finances. That's such a broad overreach it's crazy.

[GM Franchise]

I'm certainly not going to be in support of anything where an active GM, regardless of position, has any right to fine me or draw money from my finances. That's such a broad overreach it's crazy.

Hell fucking no to this.

^This

[GM Thad]

Anyone that's ever seen Season 2 of The Wire knows that unions don't actually work for you ;)

It's a no for me on anything mandatory. I'm happy to contribute when it's a league wide story that comes about through collective failure. For instance if the PFL poaching story had erupted because multiple GM's ran their league down, then it's a league wide problem and I can see the use of the GM fund being reasonable. But when it's the result of one GM's mistake (as it was) and the rest of us are expected to clean it up while they still have money to contribute but are refusing to? No thanks.

I don't need boons or rewards from the GM Rep. I can handle my own roster and improvements.

Let's dispell this myth. One GM may have made the initial mistake, but multiple GMs took it upon themselves afterwards to make further mistakes. Such as doing some poaching or refusing the initial out we were given during the Summit. Multiple GMs failed and thus the collectiveness of the punishment was earned by more than just one GM.

[Talon]

25 votes cast.

[GM Justin]

And until we stop bailing each other out stuff will continue to happen. And then you're going to want me to pay up again to fix something I didn't cause. As it relates to the PFL, if my player got poached so be it. That's why it's on me to try and build the most depth I can in case I lose a player to poaching or injury so that my team isn't devastated.

And nowhere in the CBA or league rules does it say I have to pay union dues. Therefore if I don't pay into your slush fund you can't kick me out of the union, which I'm automatically a part of because I'm a GM.

[GM Dazz]

Then  I should allow you to resign from the GM Union - thus you are not protected from the PFL poaching as that was negotiated by the rep for the union ... you also may not participate in the trade window.  Oh wait ... you wish to receive the benefits of said union still ... GASP!  I'm sorry I just don't see the logic in that.

Please do allow me to. The PFL poaching wasn't a problem for me, I poached from them and got better players from it. Happy for that to carry on and that was my point. Others cried because they couldn't handle it but I used it to my advantage. I also don't understand why you're celebrating the trade window like a win when we were able to sign those players as if free agents during the whole of the off-season previously. Well done, now I have to pay for players I could have had for free and I have to do it in a short window now. If that's the union's benefits you can keep them. Sounds like I've got the green light to sign players from the PFL from you now though so I'll look forward to that.

[GM Dazz]

Just to clarify, I have no issue with you coming up with the idea and if people want to pay then good for them but don't try to make it mandatory. Those of us that want nothing to do with it should be left alone and then I'm perfectly happy to not have the other GMs bail me out if I get into bother. Solving every league wide story with a chunk of cash from the GM fund is a bit boring too. I'd rather come up with my own solutions like I did for the kicker kidnapping. I got it wrong and it went badly for me but it was more fun for me like that. You cock up there are consequences, get it right and you benefit. That's where the fun in this comes from.

[GM Jon]

I'll state my view a little more clearly. There should be no official union, but that doesn't mean GMs can't act collectively. If you want to send a particular GM some funds to use on your behalf and you want to give him your voice, go for it but do it unofficially. For people who always find themselves in opposition to the "majority" view, it makes no sense to give a GM you disagree with so much power or any money. How would this work with the CBA? Explain what rules or changes your team needs to your owner so Talon sees what direction every GM wants to see the league go in. Then have 2 or 3 options offered for a vote. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense IC but works much better OOC. If a GM is always on the opposite side of every issue and then sees his voice taken from him, eventually the game doesn't seem all that fun anymore.

Sorry but this discussion is for GM's only.  Considering you resigned - AGAIN - buh bye.

Since you made the mistake of posting this in an OOC section, I think Kirk can 100% participate in this discussion. Don't let disagreement taint good actual discussion with points worth addressing.